Dead Sea Experiences? From Jordan?

Question:

> <dead sea toing & froing snip>

Perhaps there is a dollar threshold below which the placebo effect won’t kick in for most people — trouble is, how do you conduct a double-blind study on that? So, we’d be left with ancedotal "proof" and to that end a trip to the dead sea, which is relatively expensive, seems to have a cooresponding level of efficacy as compared to some medically approved treatment regimes — should be enough "proof" for the snake oil peddlers that frequent this place! Expect to see seasonal fluctuations in DS treatment efficacy cooresponding to airline ticket pricing. And to DaveW: you’re not charging enough for the Hats(tm), that’s why we’re not getting adequate results — a small tweaking in the cash register ought to be enough to reveal the true nature of your genius and deliver the ~breakthrough revolutionary cure~ that we all expect from your lab.  (No charge for the consultation, dear fellow.) > — Ed "maybe it’s time to study the dancing and orgies" Anderson

Now this is something I can go for.  Bring ‘em on!  (dancing, that is) Herr Ober, eine Orgie fur zwei, bitte.

Response:

> Daoud, > You are wrong, Suntanning at any beach does not have a positive result on > Psoriasis. The reason is probably that in any beach the sun rays include > high amount (relatively) of UVB, and in the dead sea the UVB is blocked by > the humidity in the air, and there is only UVA there. Since there is not > UVB, exposure of many hours continously is possible.

daoud responds: Whatever you say. Perhaps the sunshine at Hertzliyya Pituach is also special; that’s where I lived, and the sunshine there was good enough for me! As for the humidity at Yam HaMelech, I don’t remember that; it was a long time ago, though. Pollution I remember. Chag sameach umevurechet! ***** daoud Woodworker? Visit http://www.marylandwoodworker.com and participate!

Response:

> The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on > myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is > UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own > back yard. I have sometimes wondered whether the amount of UV available at > the Dead Sea might not be less than available elsewhere, since you are at > the lowest spot on earth, and there is more atmospheric absorption of the > UV.

There is nothing unique about the UV radiation at the Dead Sea. Studies have confirmed this. The *place* is unique, but UV transmission through the atmosphere matches predictions due to absorption and scattering. The major factor is the amount of atmosphere that the light must travel through to reach the surface, and that is mostly dependent on the solar angle. The Dead Sea is the lowest place on earth, but also closer to the equator than most population centers. The Dead Sea has a unique light path *only for that latitude*. The 400 meter difference in altitude would be nearly exactly compensated by moving about one degree north in latitude, or waiting at *most* about 12 minutes after the solar zenith (noon) on the shortest day of the year. UVB passes less easily than UVA through the atmosphere, so anyplace North of 31 degrees N (most of North America and Europe) have even less UVB than the Dead Sea.  Even variations in atmospheric pressure due to weather will have the same effect on UV transmission as changing altitude. Studies have shown that there is no odd effect from haze. Not that the studies I’ve seen are unbiased. They’re usually out to promote the Dead Sea as a tourist spa. One study threw out two months of data that showed more UV exposure than they were looking to find. > I lived in Israel for four years. The Mediterranean beaches did more for > my P than the Dead Sea.

I’m not at all surprised. I’ve heard all kinds of reports, including several from folks who get burnt when they leave the Dead Sea basin for a day to go touring. Myself, I just got impressive benefit from a few partly overcast days at a beach on the Gulf of Mexico. I think it’s more than just the UV component. I see no difference in my skin color. A complete change of environment seems to help, just as many find that a radical change in diet can give dramatic improvement. I know that people benefit from going to the Dead Sea. I’m just very skeptical of the various claims for the basis of their improvement. — Ed "UV nut" Anderson

Response:

>> Briefly, they said that the sun was filtered perfectly for exposure > due to the location at the lowest spot on Earth. Apparently it allows > for longer, more effective sun bathing for those with ps. > Another article from medline seems to confirm this, if you read through > to the conclusion of the abstract you can see that, "the mean UVB > exposure dose at the Dead Sea is one of the lowest reported for > clearance of psoriatic plaques."

If you look even more carefully, you’ll see that the results are misleading. They’re comparing just the UVB component of full sunlight which includes mostly UVA to the UVB dosage from UVB treatment units alone. Of *course* the UVB dose will be smaller. The report also appears to make the assumption that a lower UVB component relates to improved safety. The opposite appears to be true. UVB therapy appears to be safer than UVA. Despite past repeated claims from Dead Sea doctors that skin tumors are not a problem, a recent study shows that there may be as much as a fivefold increase in tumor risk from Dead Sea climatotherapy. Going South increases the amount of UVB in the sunlight. Going out in the middle of the day increases it even more. If UV composition is the main factor responsible for improvement at the Dead Sea, then there are many, many other places (and times) on the globe with the same UV makeup. Forget about any effect of Ozone layer depletion. Ozone absorbs UVC, and none gets through to the Earth’s surface. Ava mentioned that the documentary also attributed benefits to tar in the sea. My understanding is that it seeps up from the seabed, and quickly forms clumps. It isn’t likely to be a beneficial factor. Studies from Dead Sea spas also show that soaking in the salty water is not necessary to derive skin benefit, and is mostly helpful to those with arthritis. — Ed "maybe it’s time to study the dancing and orgies" Anderson

Response:

In Israel many people with P go to the dead sea regulary. The government pay part of the hotel cost. 3 weeks average time is needed to cure, 5 hours a day. But rember that only UVA is there, no UVB. the amount of UVA needed is maybe 1000 times of UVB. There are sides effects too, mainly aging of the skin, small black spots etc. The main factor is the UVA, very small effect from minerals. The atmosphere is good since you meet many people with the same problem. The skin will become completly brown after 3 weeks. The remission is about 4 months. Gil — Gil Teva Refla Inc. 7 Hachavazelet street City center Jerusalem 94224 Israel Tel:972-2-6259677 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on >myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is >UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own > I am not an expert by any means, and my information comes from a documentary I > saw about the Dead Sea. > Briefly, they said that the sun was filtered perfectly for exposure due to the > location at the lowest spot on Earth. Apparently it allows for longer, more > effective sun bathing for those with ps. > They also explained that there was coal tar and other minerals in the Dead Sea > from a unique event that may be what was reported in the Bible as the > destruction of Sodom and Gamorah.(sp?) We all know coal tar is very effective > for psoriasis. > Apparently an eruption sent great chunks of what we now know as coal tar high > into the sky, which would explain the descriptions of fire and brimstone > raining down from the sky. > I wish I had more specific scientific data, but I posted what I know so that > someone else will share a link with solid information for you. > Anybody? > Ava

Response:

> In Israel many people with P go to the dead sea regulary. The government pay > part of the hotel cost. 3 weeks average time is needed to cure, 5 hours a day.

Climatotherapy is not a "cure", by the common definition. > But rember that only UVA is there, no UVB.

This is incorrect. The level of UVB at the Dead Sea is nearly identical to any site at sea level a few hundred miles North of that latitude. The difference is about 3 or 4 percent, which is negligable. Going out ten minutes later in the afternoon would have the same effect. > the amount of UVA needed is maybe 1000 times of UVB. There are sides > effects too, mainly aging of the skin, small black spots etc.

I agree that UVA can have serious side effects. Any new small black spots may well be carcinomas, and should be examined by an expert. UVA, especially PUVA, can also be more effective than UVB for some people. Many still find that the benefits outweigh the risks of UVA. Please don’t try to sell your UVB lamps here, Gil, especially with inaccurate claims. — Ed "hccct, ptui" Anderson http://pinch.com/skin/pshame.html#gilteva

Response:

In order of the questions Hyatt, Ein Bokek, Israel No Specialist travel Agents All Abroad, Finchley Road, Temple Fortune, London, UK NW11 Yes with a clinic recommended by the travel agency. I feel I had excellent medical care and concern. The Hotel was great and very supportive all my needs. My only comlaint was the distance to the dead sea from the hotel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Steve, >I’m trying to find out more about the Dead Sea Spa treatments for a friend >without a computer. Which area did you go to? Did you check out Ein Gedi? >How did you decide which place? Were you under the care of a doctor while >you were there? >Susan

Response:

In article <david- > I believe that the DS regime, applied at a nice, > Caribbean beach, would produce the same effect at a considerably lower > cost, and with better food and a somewhat reduced chance of being shot.

[grin]  Well there is that of course…  :-) Before you buy.

Response:

> >The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on >myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is >UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own > Briefly, they said that the sun was filtered perfectly for exposure due to the > location at the lowest spot on Earth. Apparently it allows for longer, more > effective sun bathing for those with ps.

Another article from medline seems to confirm this, if you read through to the conclusion of the abstract you can see that, "the mean UVB exposure dose at the Dead Sea is one of the lowest reported for clearance of psoriatic plaques." —— Kushelevsky AP, Harari M, Kudish AI, et al. Safety of solar phototherapy at the Dead Sea. J Am Acad Dermatol (United States), Mar 1998, 38(3) p447-52 =ABSTRACT= BACKGROUND: Climatotherapy at the Dead Sea is effective for patients with psoriasis, atopic dermatitis, vitiligo, and other diseases. Although impressive improvement has been reported for patients with psoriasis, with a clearance rate of more than 80% after a 4-week stay, questions regarding the safety of this treatment have arisen. OBJECTIVE AND METHODS: We compare the mean UVB radiation intensities absorbed by psoriatic patients undergoing a 4-week climatotherapy under supervision at the DMZ Rehabilitation Clinic of Ein-Bokek (The Dead Sea, Israel), with similar climatotherapy studies in Sweden and Switzerland. We also compare the climatotherapy radiation dosages with the UVB intensities absorbed by psoriatic patients in radiation cabins at seven university clinics. RESULTS: According to our individually computerized DMZ protocol, a psoriasis patient with skin type IV is exposed during a 4- week climatotherapy to a mean 3.11 J/cm2 (148 MED) of UVB, similar to that in Sweden and Switzerland. The range of the in-clinic annual phototherapy in the seven medical centers studied varied from 1.17 to 37.80 J/cm2 (56 to 1800 MED). CONCLUSION: When all relevant factors are taken into account, the mean UVB exposure dose at the Dead Sea is one of the lowest reported for clearance of psoriatic plaques. Before you buy.

Response:

>> The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on > myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is > UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own > back yard. > That’s an interesting view David as there does seem to be significant > evidence to suggest that there can be major therapeutic effects…

I didn’t mean to suggest that there was no therapeutic value in a Dead Sea (DS) treatment regimen. I meant to suggest that the same therapeutic result might be available at any beach, or perhaps in one’s own back yard. Did any of the studies you cited compare DS therapy with the same therapy at another beach location?  I doubt it, because there are no DS-type clinics in the Caribbean, e.g. I believe that the DS regime, applied at a nice, Caribbean beach, would produce the same effect at a considerably lower cost, and with better food and a somewhat reduced chance of being shot. ***** daoud Woodworker? Visit http://www.marylandwoodworker.com and participate!

Response:

Steve, I’m trying to find out more about the Dead Sea Spa treatments for a friend without a computer. Which area did you go to? Did you check out Ein Gedi? How did you decide which place? Were you under the care of a doctor while you were there? Susan

Response:

In article <david- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on > myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is > UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own > back yard. I have sometimes wondered whether the amount of UV available at > the Dead Sea might not be less than available elsewhere, since you are at > the lowest spot on earth, and there is more atmospheric absorption of the > UV. > I lived in Israel for four years. The Mediterranean beaches did more for my > P than the Dead Sea. > ***** > daoud > Woodworker? Visit http://www.marylandwoodworker.com and participate! > Has anyone had any recent (or not so recent) visits to the dead sea?  I > have often thought about going there, having heard all the ‘miraculous’ > therapeutic effects. > At the moment of course Israel is in a bit or turmoil – so has anyone > ever visited the Dead Sea from Jordan? (the east coast of the sea)

That’s an interesting view David as there does seem to be significant evidence to suggest that there can be major therapeutic effects. This page lists some ’stats’: http://www.dead-sea.net/dermatological- diseases.htm Plus just doing a quick search on medline for ‘Dead Sea’ and P, came up with over 122 articles, including: Harari M, Shani J Demographic evaluation of successful antipsoriatic climatotherapy at the Dead Sea (Israel) DMZ Clinic. Int J Dermatol (United States), Apr 1997, 36(4) p304-8 Knudsen EA, Worm AM [Psoriasis treatment at the Dead Sea] Ugeskr Laeger (Denmark), Nov 4 1996, 158(45) p6440-3 Levi-Schaffer F, Shani J, Politi Y, et al. Inhibition of proliferation of psoriatic and healthy fibroblasts in cell culture by selected Dead-sea salts. Pharmacology (Switzerland), May 1996, 52(5) p321-8 Abels DJ, Rose T, Bearman JE Treatment of psoriasis at a Dead Sea dermatology clinic. Int J Dermatol (United States), Feb 1995, 34(2) p134-7 and many more…  they all seemed to be giving positive results, many quoting ‘complete clearing’ in around 50-60% Seajay Before you buy.

Response:

>The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on >myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is >UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own

I am not an expert by any means, and my information comes from a documentary I saw about the Dead Sea. Briefly, they said that the sun was filtered perfectly for exposure due to the location at the lowest spot on Earth. Apparently it allows for longer, more effective sun bathing for those with ps. They also explained that there was coal tar and other minerals in the Dead Sea from a unique event that may be what was reported in the Bible as the destruction of Sodom and Gamorah.(sp?) We all know coal tar is very effective for psoriasis. Apparently an eruption sent great chunks of what we now know as coal tar high into the sky, which would explain the descriptions of fire and brimstone raining down from the sky. I wish I had more specific scientific data, but I posted what I know so that someone else will share a link with solid information for you. Anybody? Ava

Response:

Briefly, they said that the sun was filtered perfectly for exposure due to the location at the lowest spot on Earth. Apparently it allows for longer, more effective sun bathing for those with ps. << I made several trips to Jordan on business and visited the Dead Sea (before I had p) and definitely noticed that the sunshine looked and felt different than here in the U.S. – especially Denver at 5280 ft! Don’t know about the therapeutic properties. — Bob Stephens                    |"Just machines that make big                                 |with compassion and vision".                                 |       – D. Fagen

Response:

Has anyone had any recent (or not so recent) visits to the dead sea?  I have often thought about going there, having heard all the ‘miraculous’ therapeutic effects. At the moment of course Israel is in a bit or turmoil – so has anyone ever visited the Dead Sea from Jordan? (the east coast of the sea) Before you buy.

Response:

The idea of going to the Dead Sea for P treatment is–at best–based on myth; at worst, a hoax. What you are treating the P with at the Dead Sea is UV radiation of the same kind you can get at any beach, and in your own back yard. I have sometimes wondered whether the amount of UV available at the Dead Sea might not be less than available elsewhere, since you are at the lowest spot on earth, and there is more atmospheric absorption of the UV. I lived in Israel for four years. The Mediterranean beaches did more for my P than the Dead Sea. ***** daoud Woodworker? Visit http://www.marylandwoodworker.com and participate! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Has anyone had any recent (or not so recent) visits to the dead sea?  I > have often thought about going there, having heard all the ‘miraculous’ > therapeutic effects. > At the moment of course Israel is in a bit or turmoil – so has anyone > ever visited the Dead Sea from Jordan? (the east coast of the sea)

Response:

Been there, done that, it worked miracles for me both concerning my p and pa. The sulpher and mud baths really have made a huge difference. I will be going back this spring. after four weeks my p had nearly fully cleared and I had tremendous relief from pa pains. The p clearing lasted for around four months and has since started to come back but the pa remission is still great and I have cut down from 200mg of voltirin a day to 75mg and am still fine. I do not think you need worry about the troubles they are having as that is near the areas of arab population centres. But it is really expensive around $800 a week plus fares. Though the accomodation and food was great. I think in Jordan there are facilities just not anywhere near the same standard but a lot cheaper. I think most of the medical facilities are to be found on the Israeli side. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Has anyone had any recent (or not so recent) visits to the dead sea?  I >have often thought about going there, having heard all the ‘miraculous’ >therapeutic effects. >At the moment of course Israel is in a bit or turmoil – so has anyone >ever visited the Dead Sea from Jordan? (the east coast of the sea) >Before you buy.

Response:

Not sure about the real truth on the Dead Sea But everytime I go to my Derm, he tells me I should go and try it out twice a year!  So as I see it there must be something to it.  Notlike he is making anything from me going.  Of course I really can’t afford to try this once let alone twice a year.  

Response:

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